LONG: Well, I think his influence goes past just the people that we think of.  Of course we think of Hulk Hogan, and of course we think about Jesse the Body.  And now, we look at Scott Steiner and we see "Superstar" Billy Graham twenty years later.  But, I look at guys like Rick Rude.  Not only with the body, but with the promos and how Rude would come out and draw heat on the mic.  And, certainly with Hulk...as I look back with Hogan, I'll go back and look at tapes from like eight years ago, and I'm stunned because I am looking at "Superstar" Billy Graham in almost every way!  He's wearing the bandana, doing the whole pose down thing.  He's walking up there talking about "Hey brother!"

SLAGLE:  The pythons...

LONG: Yeah, the pythons...God, it goes on and on and on!  I mean, the only thing he didn't take was the tie-dyed outfits.  I mean, he was almost a complete copy of Superstar...except that Superstar could sell moves!

SLAGLE:  He was a heel, too, for a lot of the time...

LONG:  Yeah, well, I mean, Superstar was way before his time.  He was the "cool heel" before it was cool to be a cool heel.  I know that a lot of the fans were really coming around to really liking his persona.  It was off-beat, it was different.  It was one of those things like with Dion Sanders.  When you hear Sanders, at first you get turned off because you hate hearing a braggart.  But, when you see him run back one interception seventy yards and then run a kick-off return one hundred yards...after a while you have to say, 'O.K., if you can back it up, then I guess you can do it.'   Superstar had so much Mohammed Ali in him, it was kind of the same way where you can talk about how you're the greatest, but if you back it up, then maybe you can get away with it.  And that was kind of what I saw there [with Graham] that I didn't see in a lot of the performers who came after him.

Now, Hulk...like I said, if you look at it, Hulk was just a clone of him, who had an opportunity to take it to another level.  I think a lot of the popularity -- because Hulk was a heel when he started -- and I think a lot of the popularity that you saw developing with the Superstar when he was in his final stages with the WWWF, before he lost to Backlund, although he didn't really lose, his foot was on the rope (chuckles)...when you look at that, you could see how popular he was getting.  I think Hulk must've seen that as well, and thought, "I can turn this heel persona into a babyface."  A lot of people would like to get behind this massive, huge figure who can talk the talk and figuratively walk the walk.

I look at Jesse...well, Jesse's already admitted that he basically tried to be a clone of him, and was able to take that to a new level before his health interfered.  And, it's pretty funny if you look at what he was able to make out of copying a lot of Superstar's stuff, and how he was able to parlay that into a lot of attention to him.  Look at where he is now.  You know, if not for "Superstar" Billy Graham, would he have, being struck by his persona and really wanting to imitate him, would Jesse Ventura be Jesse Ventura today?

When you look at Scott Steiner, I don't think we've even hit the tip of the iceberg with him, in terms of if he totally embraces the character.  I mean, it was such an abrupt change for him going from the babyface who didn't really have any mic skills to, overnight, he became like a totally different person.  I think that as he continues to take on more of the Superstar's stuff, it'll continue moving him up towards the top of the industry.

SLAGLE:  Now, it's simply speculation on our part, but in retrospect -- because you were around at the time -- do you think it was a mistake to take the belt off Graham when they did, or was it just the right time to make Backlund the champion?

LONG:  Well, in retrospect, from the year 2000, it was a mistake.  From the way business was done back then...it was the way business was done.  They made a determination, they made a commitment, and their word meant something back then, even in the 'sport' of pro wrestling.  Everyone worked within that framework.  Superstar knew he was going to have the belt for a certain amount of time, Bruno knew that Superstar was taking the belt, because he was going to be the transition between Bruno and Backlund.  But, I think what they didn't count on was the whole...I don't want to call it the anti-hero thing, which is what you see with Stone Cold, but it kind of is.  You know, the cool heel, who said he thought he was the best, no matter what you thought about it, who said he didn't care, said that the fans loved him anyway.  He said that the fans loved him, even when they didn't, which is a lot of how the Rock really got over, by saying he was The People's Champion while they were booing him every step he took.  Gradually, it caught on.  I think that they really could've taken about five or six years of The Superstar being the fan favorite, especially as Vince was looking at moving nationwide.  I think that he really made his nationwide move with Hulk Hogan because Hogan was such a marketable person, much more marketable than 'good guy' Bob Backlund.  But, he may have set out and started that a couple of years earlier with Superstar because he would've had a vehicle he could've ridden, you know?

SLAGLE:  Well, clearly, Graham was the inspiration for that character that he needed to go to the top, which he found in Hulk Hogan.

LONG: Right, right.  I think that a lot of the Hulk Hogan thing was that, even though his body was nowhere near The Superstar's, he was still a bigger-than-life guy who could talk, and get the crowd going.  He could do that when he was a heel.  But, in terms of the Big Guy [Vince McMahon, Jr.] I think he, both of them, saw the kind of following that Graham was starting to gain and realized that Hogan was a young guy, and that they could set him on a course and market it to the kids, and say "Look, here is your true giant hero, this is your Paul Bunion that you can follow."  And, certainly, they did it right and were very successful with it.  I feel bad in some ways that Billy didn't get to take advantage of that, because I look at the effect that Hogan has had on the business both good and bad, and I look at the riches that he has generated, and I feel a little bad that Billy wasn't able to partake in that.  But, what can you do?

SLAGLE:  That's the way it is with all sports stars from the past...

LONG:  Yeah, it is always like that, it is.  But,  the one that you hope is that....well, you saw a number of years ago Vince Coleman, who was the stolen base champ in the National league for the Cardinals, when they were talking about Jackie Robinson, who I think was fortieth at that time, or maybe thirty-fifth, and Coleman said, "Who?"  He didn't know who Jackie Robinson was.

SLAGLE:   Now, did he say that on national tv?

LONG:  Yep, on national tv.  .

SLAGLE:  Wow, that's pretty bad, man...

LONG:  He didn't know who Jackie Robinson was.  And that is pretty bad.  Here's a pioneer who, had he failed in any way, blacks in Major League baseball would've been pushed off for another fifteen years.  At the same time, I watched the Jesse the Body special on, I think it was on the E! Network.  He flat out said, "Yeah, I looked at The Superstar, I said 'That's who I want to be,' and I started imitating him."   Finally, the promoters started telling Superstar, "We've got a better Superstar than you do!"   At least Jesse acknowledges the influence that Graham had on him.  It would be nice to see Hogan admit that.  I think it's unbelievable when you look at almost every aspect of his image and persona, except for the tie-dyes, is a copy of Graham.

SLAGLE:  Well, actually, he's even used the tie-dyes when he was Hollywood Hog.  If you remember, he had those...it was like black with kind of lightning designs, and it later actually turned into a tie-dye design.  So, Mark, I have one final question for you.  If you could take Graham in his prime and put him in the ring against three current guys, who would you put him in the ring with?

LONG:  Um...that's actually a hard question, and the reason it's a hard question is because...if you had asked me that question four years ago, I could've listed them.  But, because Steve Austin and then the Rock came out and became cool heels, and Hall & Nash as the cool heels, and then, of course, with Hogan following them as a cool heel (laughter) it would be harder to say now because those became the big babyfaces.  I guess if he was in his prime, he would come in as the cool heel, get his following, and then become a babyface.  So, the question would then be, what heel would I put him up against?  There really aren't that many heels in wrestling rightnow.  At the moment, Triple H is the big heel.  In WCW, I guess Scott Steiner and Jeff Jarrett are the two biggest heels...

SLAGLE:  Well, Goldberg is supposed to be, but...

LONG:  Well, yeah, you know, I think that...you know, actually, I think I'd put Graham in with Goldberg.  And let me tell you why...

SLAGLE:  So he'd crush him...

LONG:  Well, Goldberg...right now they're having a lot of problems with him not wanting to cooperate and play his heel role.  And, I heard on an interview that Billy did where he was talking about when he was in the AWA, and there were a lot of people there not liking that the crowd was getting into him and that he was getting a lot of the heat, a lot of the attention.  So, a lot of the performers were a bit jealous of that, and they decided to put him in his place.  Apparently, Billy Robinson, who was a great technical wrestler from Britain, who had a lot of background and knowledge about how to hurt people, he was telling people he was going to get him [Graham] in there and stretch him.  You know, stretch him out, put a hurting on him, and really make him suffer through the match.  Well, I guess Superstar got in the ring (chuckles) and he had two small razor blades taped to his fingers.  As soon as Robinson got him in a hold, he whispered up to him, he says, "You see my fingers?  You see those blades?  If you even think about stretching me, and I'm gonna use `em!"  I think that's what some of these younger stars with these inflated egos need to realize.  You can think you're the baddest and the toughest, and you don't have to listen to anybody, but when Billy's got a blade taped to his finger (laughs) suddenly your perspective on the whole industry, and your place in it, probably changes a lot!

SLAGLE:  Yeah, kinda like, those 22-inch pythons got a little bite to `em...

LONG:  Exactly, exactly...and the venom is something you're really not going to want to deal with.

SLAGLE:  Right...

LONG:  So, it's kind of a hard question, because the industry has changed so much in the last four years.  And, again, this is why Billy was almost twenty years ahead of his time in terms of being the cool heel and drawing people in.  Five years ago, as a cool heel, he could've come in and taken on any of the babyfaces, and turned the babyfaces into getting boos, much the way The Rock did.  So, I don't know.

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